A Dialog Of Opposing Views On Election, Predestination And Free-Will
This dialog is a rather lengthy conversation between two people with strongly opposing views on election, predestination and free-will, as those issues pertain to salvation. The main point being: Do sinners come to the Lord Jesus Christ of their own free-will or are they NOT able to, requiring GOD to do the drawing, convicting and converting? The person referred to as “Arminianism defender” is defending man’s sovereignty in salvation. Conversely, the person referred to as “Calvinism defender” is defending God’s sovereignty in salvation.
Arminian defender:
Accepting and receiving must be done by us, as God will not force us to spend eternity with Him in heaven against our will. We must choose to enter the rest or disobey God. In contrast, the enemy will capitalize on any weakness we have to control and manipulate us into doing his desires.
Sergio wrote:
// Do you know if God doesn’t drag people to Himself, no one would ever come to Christ. //
“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” John 6:65
Calvinism defender:
Hi. Are you asking me a question here?
Arminian defender:
Do you agree with Sergio?
Calvinism defender:
I agree with Jesus. Isn’t He the one being quoted in John 6:65. Do you agree with Jesus?
Arminian defender:
We also agree with Jesus about eating His flesh and drinking His blood as the Catholics do. We cannot be hypocritical. If we expect the Catholics to read the Bible as one whole sword, we must do the same.
Your attitude regarding John 6:65 basically applies to all humanity, but some choose not to believe or resist being drawn as they harden their hearts, just as Pharoah did his before God also hardened his heart.
Calvinism defender:
How do you interpret “no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father”?
Do you interpret it in conjunction with Ephesians chapter 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
Do you consider in your interpretation of John 6:65 what is said in Ezekiel 36:
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Do you also consider Romans chapter 9:
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
And what about Matthew chapter 20:
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Arminian defender:
God’s intimate knowledge of every heart of every being He has created, His very much underrated omniscience for those who believe as you do, is the reason why His predestination is completely just and fair.
To be fair and just, He predestines based on His perfect knowledge of how each of us will respond to Jesus’ ultimate sacrifice on our behalf. This means He knows exactly how we would choose or exercise the free will He so graciously bestows upon us along with His perfect salvation plan.
That is also why we don’t have to concern ourselves about children who are aborted or died prematurely, because Father God knows exactly how they would have ultimately chosen had they made it to the age they could.
Calvinism defender:
Then how do you interpret verse 11 here in Romans chapter 3:
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
In my own life, I was content until God came along and “invaded” my life, got my attention, made sure I came under biblical preaching and convicted me of my sin and drew me to Himself and regenerated me by the Holy Spirit. GOD did it. I was nothing more than a content nominal Catholic prior to that time that God intervened.
Have you ever read Charles Spurgeon’s sinner’s prayer?
“Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to Hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; They had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am, It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not – that is the difference between me and them.”
Arminian defender:
Salvation is all God’s doing, our free will doesn’t take any of that away from God. God’s complete foreknowledge of us allows the two facts to coexist.
Calvinism defender:
I am a bit confused about how those “two facts can coexist”. Or to put it another way, Does Jesus the Groom choose the Bride or does the Bride choose the Groom? Are you saying that both choose each other? Because I thought that the Bride was dead (spiritually) and couldn’t do any choosing until the Groom first brought the Bride to life… meaning: regeneration by the Holy Spirit would have to PRECEDE the Bride having an attraction for the Groom. Don’t you agree?
Arminian defender:
I know you think your wife didn’t choose you and you did everything for her, but surely you didn’t want her to be so ill that she never had free will.
This morning, we were reminded of Romans 12:1 –
// I beseech [urge] you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you (CHOOSE TO) present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your [rational]reasonable service. 2 And (CHOOSE NOT TO BE) do not be conformed to this world, but (CHOOSE TO BE) be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. //
WE CANNOT PRESUME that everyone in the congregation has already been “revived” by GOD and can choose, yet we exhort them to choose. The same was true of Moses with the Israelites. He also exhorted both believers and non-believers to choose WHOM they believed to be God. “If Baal be god, then choose him. If Jehovah/Yahweh be god, then choose Him.”
I know your intention is very righteous, but you have been blinded from seeing the wonder of GOD WHO IS ABLE to give us free will despite our absolute inability to save ourselves.
You are in fact limiting God to the verses of the Bible you prefer and ignoring the heart of the Gospel to invite precious souls to receive the marvellously perfect love of God and His inimitable gift of salvation.
Everything God made IS good and perfect, & good and perfect beings made in the image of God can choose to believe or not, just as Jesus could have chosen NOT TO GO to the cross, NOT to be demeaned as a creature despite His being Creator, NOT to be lorded over by mere creatures who even with good intentions DIDN’T UNDERSTAND Him. All they could see was the 12 year old boy and later, all they could see was the very human man whose parents and siblings they know, which the Catholics continue to hold over Jesus Christ to this very day. THE LACK OF FAITH ALWAYS stops us from ACCEPTING THE WHOLE COUNSEL of God’s word, and to pick and choose what we prefer – always to see ourselves as so righteous as to think of ourselves so lowly, when in fact we are demeaning God’s omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence.
Arminian defender:
How can we receive anything WHOLEHEARTEDLY no matter how good and wonderful, if GOD IS, as you keep implying, INCAPABLE of giving us free choice or will? You keep reinforcing to yourself and your likeminded friends that 2 Corinthians 3:17 cannot be true.
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You believe that we are only slaves to the devil or to God, which is in a way true. But how is being a slave to the devil very different from beng a slave to GOD?
There is NO real liberty with the devil, but with GOD, there is true liberty. And what is the root of liberty? Is it not the ability to CHOOSE of our free will? IS your god NOT ABLE to give you true liberty?
Is your god so helpless to give you free will as you were helpless to enable your wife to have free will when she was almost as good as “dead”?
How is your god greater than you, when He is as incapable to revive His dead people without giving them free will to choose to receive Him, to be healed by Him, to be loved by Him?
There is absolutely no need to beseech or urge or exhort or encourage or beg, if there is really no free will or choice. Are you saying all that persuasion is just for show? Those who are predestined or chosen by God would automatically come to Jesus whether they can choose or not, do you not agree with that at least?
Everyday is a CHOICE to die to ourselves and live as God’s tells us is best for us, because everyday is a CHOICE to be grateful for all that God has done for us, that in our weakness HE is ever strong.
Everyday is a CHOICE to BELIEVE EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God and not doubt any section that is contrary to our cherished doctrines.
Calvinism defender:
My wife was ALIVE, not dead before we got married. I am referring to the spiritually DEAD and I am questioning how THEY can choose the Groom in that state.
Regarding this statement: “If Baal be god, then choose him. If Jehovah/Yahweh be god, then choose Him.”
Where in the Bible can I find that? Are you thinking of this:
“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15
In that verse, Joshua is giving the people of Israel a choice between two sets of false gods, not between GOD and false gods. Many Christians don’t seem to notice that when they read that verse.
When you say: “You keep reinforcing to yourself and your likeminded friends that 2 Corinthians 3:17 cannot be true.” do you know what that verse means? It says:
“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.”
Where is the Spirit of the Lord? He is indwelling in REGENERATED believers. So I do not think your use of that verse backs up your statements about free-will. Scripture and real life shows us that BEFORE we are regenerated, our wills are in bondage to our sin nature. That is precisely what Paul was saying here:
“There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” Romans 3:11
AND HERE:
“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” Romans 8:7&8
Arminian defender:
All humans can make a choice between lying or not lying, stealing or not stealing, cheating or not cheating etc. But you are saying they cannot make the choice to love or hate God.
Why are you convinced that the carnal mind cannot make the choice to love God? Is it not in a way a selfish choice, because to love God is ultimately loving ourselves and assuring oneself of eternal life?
The point I am making is that choosing God doesn’t make one a superior person to the one who doubts God or struggles to accept His words.
Calvinism defender:
Regarding: “Why are you convinced that the carnal mind cannot make the choice to love God?”
Would you love a husband that you never heard, never saw, never met, never KNEW? … a STRANGER to you?
“And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.” John 10:4-5
Arminian defender:
Then what is the point of God’s love-letter? Why did Paul bother to painstaking write all those letters, why did Jesus’ CHOSEN EYE-witnesses share the love of Christ through the Gospel?
Your idea of God’s election DOESN’T require God’s love-letter or preaching at all. You are only accepting parts of the Bible, NOT its entirety.
My husband’s letters to me when he was courting me moved me to love him and accept his love for me.
Calvinism defender:
Regarding “Your idea of God’s election DOESN’T require God’s love-letter or preaching at all.”
I never said that. I will be the first to say that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. God uses preachers and the Holy Spirit. The preachers preach God’s word while at the same time the Holy Spirit draws the sinner/hearer, convicts that person and then converts/regenerates that person. At that point, the new birth occurs. As with a new born baby, the new born believer then has a desire for fellowship with their Father God, just as a new born infant desires to cling to its mother.
Regarding “My husband’s letters to me when he was courting me moved me to love him and accept his love for me.”
That sounds like a parallel to what I just said about conversion… Your spirit (human nature/spirit versus the Holy Spirit) acting in concert with your husband’s words (versus God’s words) drew you to your husband.
Arminian defender:
God doesn’t need foreknowledge if He already dictates which are chosen and which not. Jesus wouldn’t have commanded us to share the Gospel if God had already predetermined without free choice or free will.
If Free Will didn’t matter to God, just as it doesn’t matter to the enemy of our souls, then there would be no need for this life, for God to come in the flesh to save us or for the Holy Spirit to woo us to God. We would end up in heaven or hell as God predetermined, without any allowances made for our response. If you were right, then all of life is just a pretence or show that we have choice, God tricking us as the enemy does. Thank God that His word when taken in its entirety demonstrates that God cares about our hearts and would never trick us or lie to us. He would never exhort us to choose life and not death, when He has already made the choice for us.
Aren’t all the following choices we need to make: submit/resist, draw near or keep distant. How can one be double-minded if there isn’t choice?
《 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 》
Calvinism defender:
Regarding this:
“Jesus wouldn’t have commanded us to share the Gospel if God had already predetermined”
That particular statement you made brings to mind this quote of Charles Spurgeon on that very point:
“If God would have painted a yellow stripe on the backs of the elect I would go around lifting shirts. But since He didn’t I must preach “whosoever will” and when “whatsoever” believes I know that he is one of the elect.” – CH Spurgeon
I hope that clarifies this particular point at least.
Arminian defender:
You didn’t address the fact that predetermination without free choice means Jesus’ command to preach and exhort choice IS a sham or scam. Predetermination based on God’s foreknowledge of free will choices ISN’T a sham or scam, because it requires Jesus’ commission.
The god your propose is sadly tricky, fraudulent and untrustworthy. Such a god disdains free will, but males it look like there is free will. It justifies Catholicism, because Catholics are drilled not to trust God’s word in its entirety, but only in part, requiring teaching outside the Bible to complete it, even limit it.
Such a god doesn’t give us self-control, but insists on his control of us. His judgement is also just a show, because he already said yes or no on behalf of every individual, like a child does with all the dolls in the doll house. He is a puppet-master that has only puppets & no Pinnichio who can choose to disobey and to assert his free will.
God’s gift of free will that comes from being made in His image is the very reason why this world is fallen and Jesus had to be incarnated.
Without God’s gift of free choice e.g. the option of eating the fruit from the forbidden tree, there would no need for the gift of salvation.
Plan A or God’s petfect will is Adam & Eve & all mankind choosing to accept God’s love and obey Him.
Plan B or God’s permissive will allows mankind to rebel, so God Himself has to take our place to die on our behalf, but never to decide on our behalf.
Therefore His choice is based on His foreknowledge of our free choices because He sees all of time at one go. Not because He already decided for us, as if we were no different from animals.
God gave into King Hezekiah’s choice to live on, even though He initially wanted to let the king die before the most evil king of Judah Manasseh would be conceived and born. Manasseh then had the prophet Isaiah sawed into two. Without free will, God wouldn’t allow for mankind to choose & these things wouldn’t have happened. True love cannot be forced, or chosen by an entity other than the person who responds.
God giving free will to His creatures was & is risky, but God knew it is ultimately worthwhile, because those who love Him do so without Him forcing then to do so.
In Deuteronomy 30, God offers the choice of life or death to the spiritually dead even before Christ came.
《 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But THE WORD IS VERY NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart, THAT YOU MAY DO IT (implicit – IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO).
15 “SEE, I HAVE SET BEFORE YOU today LIFE AND GOOD, DEATH AND EVIL, 16 IN THAT I COMMAND YOU today TO LOVE THE LORD your God, to WALK IN HIS WAYS, and to KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, His statutes, and His judgments, THAT YOU MAY LIVE and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 BUT IF YOUR HEART TURNS AWAY SO that YOU DO NOT HEAR, AND ARE DRAWN AWAY, AND WORSHIP OTHER GODS and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that YOU SHALL SURELY PERISH; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I CALL HEAVEN AND EARTH AS WITNESSES today against you, THAT I HAVE SET BEFORE YOU LIFE AND DEATH, blessing and cursing; THEREFORE CHOOSE LIFE, that both you and your descendants may live; 20 that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.” 》
If what you insist on were true, then God wouldn’t and couldn’t have offered this choice to the spiritually dead, since like you keep saying, they are dead. Yet even though Jesus hadn’t rescued them yet, they chose to believe God’s words and promises in faith.
Please see the serious consequences of what you believe – is your god according to the WHOLE counsel of His Word. Is your viewpoint only based on the parts of the Matthew 10:34 sword you cherish, using thinking “BEYOND what is written” to explain away the parts that say otherwise?
Creator God is not like us, not limited by us or limited to only parts of His Word we prefer. He is ALL He says He is and not one iota must be explained away, even with other parts of His Word. His Name is higher than any other; He truly IS the Name above all names and His thoughts far higher than we can fully grasp.
Calvinism defender:
It sounds like your view of free-will is different than God’s view. God’s view is that the “will” of an unregenerated spiritually dead sinner is free only up to a certain point. Free to make many different choices but not inclined to want to submit to the thrice-holy God of the Bible but rather RUN from HIM:
“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.” John 3:19-20
I wrote the following “dialog” a while ago to answer a lot of objections that Christians have about free-will. Each statement I made has a link to the Scriptures that validate my statements. I had to “unlearn” a lot of things that you still seem to be holding onto regarding the will of unsaved sinners.
A Hypothetical Conversation Between An Arminian And A Calvinist
If you would have read Walter Chantry’s “The Myth of Free Will” that I shared with you a while ago, you would understand that the idea of free will is not as simplistic as most Christians want to believe. There is ethical freedom, circumstantial freedom and spiritual freedom as Chantry points out. Until and unless you address those things, you can’t expect to draw the correct conclusions about the biblical doctrines of election and predestination.
Arminian defender:
If one cannot adequately explain one’s teaching to a young child, so he or she understands, one is effectively disobeying Jesus’ command in e.g. Mark 10:14 to let the little children go to Him, and do not forbid them. The Catholic teaching of the Eucharist host is much like teaching of election and predestination. Such teachings do not allow people to receive the kingdom of God as a little child.
It is your view that is different from God’s view. You believe God robs people of self-control to take over their will as if we are marionettes. Just as Catholicism equates Jesus with Lucifer in some ways, you equate God with the enemy in your insistence that predestination excludes free will. You refuse to see that Adam & Eve were given the free will to accept or reject God and His words. This was also the case with Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Ruth, etc.
You cannot say God makes decisions for each of us in terms of salvation and at the same time judges us for these choices of His. You want to have your cake and eat it.
Calvinism defender:
But GOD can say it. Look what the God of the Bible has said about Himself:
“And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” Daniel 4:35
Regarding “You believe God robs people of self-control to take over their will as if we are marionettes.”
I thought GOD was the POTTER? Are you saying He is merely a bystander w.r.t. salvation? Are you saying He is at OUR MERCY, hoping that we will choose HIM?
When parents go to an orphanage to adopt children, do they go there hoping that the children will choose them… adopt them?
I wonder why Paul would use words like adoption if the sinners do the choosing:
“For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.” Romans 8:15
Arminian defender:
You are putting words in my mouth I never said. He is the Potter and we are the clay, but He isn’t a human Potter, He is God. God never lies, so when He says He knows everything and we should choose LIFE by keeping His words and obeying His commands, He does NOT lie.
When He says we must each choose from the options He has given, He is NOT lying.
You, only believe half of what God says, not all of it. I believe He IS Creator God and we are fully dependent on Him. His giving us free will and choice is precisely why the world is so messed up. That is NOT His perfect will. What God made IS good, but no longer good after the Fall. If God were potter like a human potter, we can say He made this mess the world now is. That’s precisely why many don’t believe in God, because they think He is a lousy potter.
They refuse to see the other half of the God’s truth, God’s absolute brilliance in seeming to be at our mercy because of HIS CHOICE to give us free will when in fact He is in full control, working ALL things for the good of those who love Him (NOT forced due to His choice) and are called according to His purpose (don’t forget Judas Iscariot was also called and elected/chosen).
When we see God as a human potter and not divine, we are LIMITING Him and insisting on knowing Him “according to the flesh” like 2 Corinthians 5:16 says. You are still Catholic in your thinking. Even though you believe you left Catholicism, its spirit of scholarship that considers God a liar and tricky and hard to please and needs to be interpreted by holding on to parts of the Bible is still strong.
You clearly haven’t watched the movie “Lion” based on a true story. Even parents who choose their children CANNOT FORCE THEIR CHILDREN TO LOVE THEM nor will they want to (their love like God’s is unconditional). There’s also another story, this time fictional, that demonstrates this truth. Agatha Christie’s “Hercule Poirot” had to solve a case that involved just such a family of adopted children.
The kind of God you are painting to me will never have to be hurt deeply by our betrayal or adultery, because He chose and wilfully made that happen. He is fully responsible for all His wayward creatures and so He doesn’t have to weep over them as Jesus did over Jerusalem.
What we saw of the human Jesus, we saw of the Father: Seemingly at our mercy, but in truth always in full control. He could have summoned ten thousand angels, but He didn’t. He could have killed His enemies or the unbelievers all at once like superheroes do, but even more easily and fully, but He isn’t a show-off and He wants us to believe by faith, to look beyond what we can see, to CHOOSE LIFE. THE SPIRIT IS LIFE (John 6:63).
Consider fasting from any writings or material or content that are “BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN”. Hear and learn from the Father through “WHAT IS WRITTEN”.
Half of the truth is still NOT the truth, dear brother-in-Christ.
We are fully dependent on Creator God who is so magnanimous that He even gives His enemies the most amazing abilities to go against Him e.g. Archangel Lucifer. God didn’t stimge at all even though He already knew Lucifer would betray Him. That is the unaccountably high price of giving His creatures free choice to love Him. The truth is even in our making the choice to love or hate or be lukewarm, we are totally dependent on God, who gave us these abilities in the first place. God is not at the mercy of our choices, just as Jesus wasn’t at the mercy of the Sandhedrin or the Roman authorities. God stands outside time and knows everything from beginning to the end, & beyond. If God were as you promote, He wouldn’t have to work ALL things for good and He wouldn’t need foreknowledge.
He wouldn’t have to grieve, because He created the mess in the first place (He doesn’t make mistakes like we humans out of carelessness or weakness) and is in perfect control.
GENESIS 6:6 NIV 6 The LORD was grieved that He had made man on the earth, and His heart was filled with pain.
EPHESIANS 4:30 KJV 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Thank you for motivating me to look up how wonderful and amazing Creator GOD is. I love songs that express my love for God, just as a response to His infinitely perfect Being and His everlasting love.
Everything good and perfect comes from Him – even His choice to give His creatures free will to choose between Him and the enemy, between good and evil. It is this very costly gift of GOD that the world and humans can descend so tragically to terrible depths of immorality and rebellion. GOD did not make sin or chaos or disease, and He certainly didn’t predetermine for so many to rebel against Him and His words of eternal life. It is hard to understand that He is fully in control and yet allows human beings free will, but He said it, and so it is. It is not for us to rationalise God’s words, so it fits our idea of election and predestination. It is for us to accept ALL of God’s words and doctrine as a little child would.
IF GOD PREDETERMINED ALL OUR CHOICES AND ALL OF HISTORY THE WAY YOU BELIEVE, then it wouldn’t be what it has been and still is. NO HUMAN WOULD BE UNDER THE ILLUSION that there is no god and they can do what they like. God wouldn’t have to persuade and exhort us, or be grieved in his heart by their rebellion, or get angry with what He Himself had ordained.
Jeremiah 31:3 Long ago the Lord said to Israel: “I have loved you, my people, with an everlasting love. With unfailing love I have drawn you to myself.
Psalm 5:4-5 O God, you take no pleasure in wickedness; you cannot tolerate the sins of the wicked. Therefore, the proud may not stand in your presence, for you hate all who do evil.
Psalm 78:40 Oh, how often they rebelled against him in the wilderness and grieved his heart in that dry wasteland.
Deuteronomy 9:22 You also made the Lord angry at Taberah, Massah, and Kibroth-hattaavah.
Calvinism defender:
Are you willing to wait upon God to show you things that perhaps you don’t yet see? Conversely, are you willing to wait upon God to reveal things to others that they don’t yet see?
Another question I don’t think you addressed yet, but perhaps I missed it:
Do you think there is ANY difference in the WILL of an unsaved person and a Holy Spirit regenerated person?
Arminian defender:
You are again questioning WHAT IS WRITTEN. I have been willing to fast from man’s writings “BEYOND what is written” ever since I discovered that this strategy was precisely how the Catholic Church went away from Jesus’ doctrine, have you? Instead of solely hearing and learning from the Father like Jesus taught in John 6:45, you have simply gone onto get another gospel that only honours half of the truth that IS WRITTEN to keep believers “SAFE” as Philippians 3:1. You even highly recommend that I read “BEYOND what is written” to attain the human understanding that is GOING TO PASS AWAY when heaven and earth does.
Are you saying that Adam and Eve were unsaved, even though they were directly created by GOD who proclaim that all He had made was good?
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Genesis states in verse 31 not just “good,” but “very good”. Therefore the free will to choose to obey God or not IS “very good” even though many good brains and devoted people have tried very hard to buttress the theology you love so much.
Why do you hate free will so much? Why do you hate it that Creator GOD is not only infinitely good, but also infinitely able? Why do you limit the Potter God to the limitations of the creaturely potter, who is unable to give his creations the freedom to choose. Do you realise that algorithms that humans have created take on a life of their own and even make choices that human creators cannot control? Creator GOD is revealing the truth of His word, the entire SWORD, in mysterious ways that cannot be denied. Yet you continue to protest – perhaps it is true that Catholics who leave Catholicism and continue to use the methods of Catholicism are indeed Protestants. — editor’s note: this is a dig at the Calvinist, who happens to be a former Catholic
1 Corinthians 6:12
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1 Corinthians 10:23
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Mankind’s love for being learned and scholarship is lawful, but it is all too easy for us to be brought under the power of ivory tower and other academic exploits. Yes, it is lawful for us to imbibe them, but do these heady ideas that presume to explain what had already been explained very well by GOD in Christ & Jesus’ chosen EYE-witnesses, edify? A resounding no from me.
This is precisely the type of question that led the Catholic Church away from Jesus’ doctrine & yet you still embrace it. JESUS’ antidote for that poison is in John 6:45. Let us rejoice that God makes a way, only if we are willing, only if we believe Him – “EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God”.
<> John 6:45
Your admired human teacher wrote: //You who extol the free will as a great force are clinging to a root of pride. //
I have never extolled the free will. I have only ever extolled Creator GOD for being able to give human beings free will precisely because of His omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. I have never ever extolled “the free will” in any way.
Calvinism defender:
Please let me know if this makes sense to you. Thanks…
Regarding: “I have never ever extolled “the free will” in any way.”
Well you apparently don’t realize it, but you certainly are DEFENDING mankind’s free-will as if it supersedes or overpowers God’s sovereignty, to such a point that you make sinners sovereign over God and make God subject to the will of sinners. Also, your view of God’s foreknowledge makes Him look like He can’t do things unless He first looks forward in time to see what we are going to do. What a impotent version of God, who has been turned into a puppet of mankind, so that sinners could be sovereign in their ability to express their will at any and all times, with God waiting upon those sinners to exercise their will before He does things.
Just because God the Son set aside His power and glory (to some extent) in order to come to earth to suffer and die for sinners, does not mean that He is ALWAYS setting aside His WILL or His sovereignty or His prerogative to do as HE PLEASES to accommodate the desires and the schedules of rebellious sinners. Nor does it mean that He is expecting the spiritually dead to come running to Him, any more than Jesus expected Lazarus to come running out of the tomb towards Him, UNTIL Jesus raised him from the dead. Jesus didn’t shout into the tomb “Lazarus please come out of your own free will”. He shouted “Lazarus come forth!” which could ONLY happen AFTER he had been raised from the dead!
We cannot expect goats to act like sheep. We cannot expect unsaved unregenerated sinners to act like those who have been born from above by the Holy Spirit. We must AGREE WITH GOD when He describes the STATE OF THE UNSAVED…
NONE MEANS NONE…
“There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God.” Romans 3:11
You write about the will of the unsaved as if you do not know the difference between the saved and the lost… the spiritually dead and the spiritually alive. Well please read this, to make sure that you will know the difference. Paul took the time to tell us right here:
“19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” Galatians 5:19-24
Arminianism defender:
My God doesn’t say to CHOOSE LIFE, then actually NOT mean what He says. Yes, no one is righteous, not even one. That’s why God Himself had to be Incarnate to save us. All we have to do accept Jesus as the only way and believe ALL of what He said in person and through the Holy Spirit to effectively bring the Matthew 10:34 SWORD. The opposite of control and manipulation or witchcraft IS free will and self-control. The opposite of evil is good.
HUMAN RESPONSE TO GOD’S commandments & thus supreme GIFT Jesus is documented throughout the Bible.
《 4 And SOME of them WERE PERSUADED; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas.5 But the Jews WHO WERE NOT PERSUADED, becoming envious, took some of the evil men from the marketplace, and gathering a mob, set all the city in an uproar and attacked the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. 6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some brethren to the rulers of the city, crying out, “These who have turned the world upside down have come here too. 7 Jason has harbored them, and these are all acting contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another king—Jesus.” 8 And they troubled the crowd and the rulers of the city when they heard these things. 》Acts 17
《 30 Then Caleb quieted the people before Moses, and said, “Let us go up at once and take possession, for WE ARE WELL ABLE to overcome it. 31 But the men who had gone up with him said, “WE ARE NOT ABLE to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we.” 32 And they gave the children of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature. 33 There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.” 》Numbers 13
THE HOLY SPIRIT DISCERNS THE HEARTS that are open to His ministry and accept Christ as their Saviour like Cornelius & his household. The Holy Spirit then baptises them with fire.
《 42 And HE COMMANDED US TO PREACH to the people, AND to TESTIFY that it is He who was ordained by God to be JUDGE OF THE LIVING AND THE DEAD. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, WHOEVER BELIEVES in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision WHO BELIEVED were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 》 Acts 10
GOD DOESN’T JUDGE US FOR HIS ELECTION and predestination (based on His foreknowledge), BUT OUR CHOICE. He gives us choice because He had enabled all to choose as their heart dictates e.g. Cain. My God is ABLE – is yours also able?
《 6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, SIN LIES AT THE DOOR. And its desire is for you, but YOU SHOULD RULE OVER IT.” 8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him. 》Genesis 4
You have helped me understand why Calvinism is a false gospel. Thank you.
Indeed, those who choose Jesus and choose to walk in the Holy Spirit “have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires” (Galatians 5:24).
《 16 I say then: WALK IN THE SPIRIT, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But IF YOU ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT, you are not under the law. 》Galatians 5
IF YOU ALLOW GOD LORDSHIP AND WALK IN THE SPIRIT – that is the language of the Bible, God’s love-letter…IF YOU CHOOSE LIFE & (seek to) OBEY GOD’S COMMANDMENTS each & every day…
The whole of God’s love-letter IS ABOUT MAKING THE RIGHT CHOICE FOR GOD AND HIS WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE. IT IS STANDING IN FAITH against any words that dilute THE WHOLE COUNSEL of the Law and claims God judges us for what He has already chosen or determined for us.
《 (choose to) STAND FAST therefore IN THE LIBERTY BY WHICH CHRIST HAS MADE US FREE, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that IF YOU (choose to) BECOME CIRCUMCISED, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, YOU WHO ATTEMPT TO BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW; you have fallen from grace. 》
《 11 Then the Lord said to Moses: “HOW LONG WILL THESE PEOPLE REJECT Me? And how long will they NOT BELIEVE Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them? 12 I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them, and I will make of you a nation greater and mightier than they.” 》
Numbers 14
When you don’t believe God judges us according to our choices, you don’t believe God or His word.
There is nothing prideful in God choosing to respect human choice, but it is prideful to blame God for our choices and make Him responsible for our bad choices, especially regarding salvation.
Sovereign GOD’S WILL is paramount.
《 25 See that you DO NOT REFUSE HIM who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 》Hebrews 1
My husband buys films and TV series he likes & we watched this episode of Perry Mason today. The psychiatrist who claims to love Laura Robertson is very much like the god you keep promoting.
Luke 16:10
《 10 He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much. 》
WE CAN BE CERTAIN that Creator God is ever consistent. Whatever He commands us to do, He had already done so Himself perfectly in Christ. He is never a hypocrite and He cannot lie or would never give into any kind of deception.
《 5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we (CHOOSE TO) say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we (CHOOSE TO) walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we (CHOOSE TO) say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we (CHOOSE TO) confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we (CHOOSE TO) say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 》1 John 1
《 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though GOD were PLEADING THROUGH US: we IMPLORE YOU on Christ’s behalf, (CHOOSE TO) be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 》2 Corinthians 5
Calvinism defender:
Regarding “My God doesn’t say to CHOOSE LIFE, then actually NOT mean what He says.”
Look what MY God said… do you think He meant what He said?
“At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast HID these things from the wise and prudent, and hast REVEALED them unto babes.” Matthew 11:25
This chart shows how “Salvation Is Of God Even Though It Seems To Be Of Us”:
A more readable version of this Scripture chart can be found HERE.
Arminianism defender:
“It seems to be” IS deception. God hates deception, but it is the enemy’s basic strategy. Like I said earlier, this attitude is wanting to have our cake and eat it. It IS equating evil with good.
Although Acts 13 speaks of a sorcerer, the basic principle of using deception to withstand truth is considered evil by God and those of the faith:
《 9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10 and said, “O FULL OF ALL DECEIT AND ALL FRAUD, you son of the devil, you ENEMY OF ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS, will you not cease PERVERTING THE STRAIGHT WAYS of the Lord? 》
CREATOR GOD would never condone any deception at the heart of His salvation message. He has chosen, yes, but through His infinite foreknowledge of how each heart, each person He has created, would respond to His perfect love. He honours our rejection only because He wants our true love and devotion UNFORCED. He waits patiently for us to finally give our hearts to Him & knows which ones would ultimately come to Him.
《 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For JESUS KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING WHO they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 》John 6
《 26 These things I have written to you concerning THOSE WHO TRY TO DECEIVE you. 27 BUT THE ANOINTING which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do NOT NEED that ANYONE TEACH YOU (nothing “BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN); but as THE SAME ANOINTING teaches you concerning all things, and IS TRUE, AND IS NOT A LIE, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 28 And now, LITTLE CHILDREN, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and NOT BE ASHAMED before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that HE IS RIGHTEOUS, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him. 》1 John 2
《 18 For when they speak GREAT SWELLING WORDS OF EMPTINESS, they ALLURE through the lusts of the flesh (HAVE NO QUALMS BELIEVING CREATOR GOD TO BE AS DECEITFUL AS THE CREATURE), through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error (SCHOLARSHIP & HUMAN KNOWLEDGE). 19 While they promise them liberty (SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE that LITTLE CHILDREN CANNOT UNDERSTAND), they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (ALL OF WHAT IS WRITTEN – NOT DISMISSING ANY OF IT AS SEEMING OR DECEPTION), they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit (INTERPRETATIONS THAT ONLY ACCEPT THE PLAIN MEANING OF PARTS OF THE Matthew 10:34 SWORD JESUS CAME TO BRING, NOT ITS ENTIRETY),” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 》2 Peter 2
《 9 The coming of the LAWLESS one is according to THE WORKING OF SATAN, WITH ALL power, signs, and LYING WONDERS, 10 and WITH ALL UNRIGHTEOUS DECEPTION among those who perish, because they did NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH (THINK IT IS “SEEMING” & THAT GOD WOULD RESORT TO DOUBLE TALK IN HIS OWN LOVE-LETTER), that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason GOD WILL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE THE LIE, 12 that they all may be condemned WHO DID NOT BELIEVE THE TRUTH but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 》2 Thessalonians 2
The free will to choose Life and Creator God IS NOT A LIE and doesn’t in any way take away credit or glory for God’s inimitable gift of salvation. It is NOT like the Catholic exaltation of Mary or the Eucharist host. It doesn’t require any cunning of “WHAT SEEMS to be”. It fully accepts ALL of what God said as TRUTH free of all trickery or fraud.
At the heart of God’s perfect love is the free choice to believe “EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God”. There is no compulsion or even necessity – God doesn’t compel us, so we come grudgingly. He woos us, persuades us, gives His all with tears for our hard hearts. He loves us with an everlasting love and grieves deeply for all who doubt any of His words, especially His transparent and guileless love. It is pride that wants God to make us rather than we come to Him willingly and cheerfully and joyfully.
Revealing to babes IS the plain meaning, free of suspicion or doubt.
Even with free will, we can only choose because God created us and everything good and perfect in the first place. As long as we have life, we can choose, after that, no more. We mustn’t take what God gives for granted. Choice entails responsibility, and God has every right to JUDGE because He has given us choice. Calvinism is a way to absolve oneself of any responsibility.
If what you believe is true, choosing Life and God becomes IRRELEVANT (OR JUST A SHOW), because it is God’s fault anyway. He alone is responsible, so He has no reason to judge us.
The enemy is really clever and cunning in inspiring mankind to spin such doctrines, and the more besotted we are with human knowledge, thinking and interpretation, the more we can play into his hands.
Like I once said, Creator God is so magnanimous and sincere in His giving us free will, that He is willing to give even His strongest opponents the best of intellect or health or strength to fight against His words.
《 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we HOLD the beginning of OUR CONFIDENCE STEADFAST to the end, 15 while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” 》Hebrews 3
Faith is choosing to believe in God; unbelief is choosing NOT to.
Calvinism defender:
Dear sister, we are definitely at an impasse here and I do not wish to belabor this issue any further, simply because we will NOT be able to agree as long as we differ on this one strategic point:
What does it mean to be spiritually dead (i.e. unregenerate) and in that state, what are sinners capable of doing… or capable of choosing? If we over-estimate the goodness and spirituality of unsaved sinners, then it becomes totally impossible to rightly interpret Scriptures that address the sovereignty of God in salvation. The spiritually blind do not see God, unless and until God opens their blind eyes. The spiritually deaf to not hear God, until God opens their deaf ears. The spiritually dead, do not seek God, until God regenerates their spiritually dead souls.
